tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1347024209749983628.post504867822960015644..comments2024-01-27T02:01:24.039-05:00Comments on Happy Hour at the Top Bar: Vindication!!!Julie Dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09965401314478095790noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1347024209749983628.post-57271673262220336322019-08-20T09:13:19.902-04:002019-08-20T09:13:19.902-04:00Adam Roses' comments point out how even profes...Adam Roses' comments point out how even professionally done studies can be junk science. Somebodies, Master's thesis? There are too many uncontrolled variables. While interesting, nothing is proven about the really significant issues of bee survival and production.<br /> <br />To really settle the question(then it would be only locally/personally) take a statistically significant sample, say closer to 60 hives and replace the comb in half. Compare production and survival for the two groups over at least a couple of years.<br /> I live in a semitropical environment and have very different challenges than most. The bees propolize very quickly here as the weather is always warm. Comb turnover may be a good strategy to try and keep bees healthy.I am thinking keeping hives small an arificially swarming them. I might even consider driving my bees out and putting the frames in a freezer. Management is quite different when you have flowers 10 month out of the year.<br /> I've had one neglected swarm for awhile. It moved into my attic. Finally I cleaned it out and put the bees in a crude top bar hive which I promptly neglected for a year. Recently it toppled over because of the soft sand. By the time I discovered it all the comb was ruined. The bees were clustered on the stand. I set up the hive and they went in. I started feeding them to help them build comb. Now they have either died out or absconded. Most of the bees at my feeder were different, so my swarm can't be very close. Interestingly, there were black bees and distinctly smaller bees. There are no dead bees in the hive so I'm thinking they absconded. Now I have a renewed interest in actually managing some bees, but have none at the moment.<br />I am building a Layens insulated hive. The insulation is against the heat. I am building 7 frames 1 1/4" for brood and 8 1 1/2" for honey to put in Sharoskin's 14 frame hive. I don't need the denser cluster on the double bee space for winter. I am thinking of building some hives with poured aircrete similar to the Zest hives. I may even try one with 4" cement blocks with a single layer Layens inside to control condensation. A big issue here is humidity. Perhaps it might pay to make an European style bee shed and put a humidifier/airconditioner in it. The savings in drying effort might pay for the energy if it ran off a solar panel. What would be the optimal temperature inside for the bees? I can imagine a migratory strategy with no loading of hive boxes, just close the entrances and tow to a new location! No beekeeping out in the hot sun! For a big operation, put them on skids and load with a forklift carry behind. One forklift could handle multiple trucks.(Actully, I believe migratory beekeeping should be outlawed for bee promiscuity) <br /> I am newly back to beekeeping so can't really add much to the discussion. <br />I notice that many of the wild bees here are quite small. I suspect they are descendants of Africanized bees. Conditions are different in the Americas so I expect that the aggressiveness is muted. Bees that nest in the open are always more aggressive than bees in secure locations.TrutHunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06956637065502387248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1347024209749983628.post-11797793943187691992017-06-30T14:28:16.506-04:002017-06-30T14:28:16.506-04:00Thanks for the link. I'm aware that swarms pre...Thanks for the link. I'm aware that swarms prefer old comb. It makes sense. Something like 3 out of 4 swarms dies within the first year, and building a new colony requires a lot of resources. So if they can find a cavity with old comb, then 1) it's a signal that the hole is a good home for bees and 2) they don't have to spend as much energy/resources building comb.<br /><br />On the other hand, I'm not trying to attract swarms. Plus, the space in a TBH is limited, so I actually have to reduce the tendency to swarm. One of the best ways to do that is to remove old comb and give them empty bars so they can build new comb (which the queen prefers for eggs anyway).Julie Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09965401314478095790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1347024209749983628.post-12786583799591625852017-06-30T14:23:31.131-04:002017-06-30T14:23:31.131-04:00Adam, I'm glad to hear that your hives are doi...Adam, I'm glad to hear that your hives are doing so well. I'm very interested in Barbara's situation. Perhaps there is an environmental factor at play. I also wonder what type of hives she has. It may be that she keeps something expandable like Langs or Warres. Or it In that case, it could be that that ratio of old/new comb is such that it works for her.<br /><br />In any case, I would not presume to tell someone else how to run their own hives. However, I do know what I've observed and what works for me. Other people have to do the same.Julie Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09965401314478095790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1347024209749983628.post-39651055491353295962017-06-30T10:11:27.167-04:002017-06-30T10:11:27.167-04:00Julie and Don are both agreeing with each other, s...Julie and Don are both agreeing with each other, saying "Unless you live in some incredibly remote area, it's really hard to find a natural environment". And then using this to explain why they do a lot of comb replacement.<br /><br />Well ... I live in suburbia in North Manchester, England. I sometimes label my honey "M60" honey because I can guarantee all the honey in the jar has come from within 6km of the M60 motorway which encircles Manchester :).<br /><br />Of course this is not an unpolluted environment. But relatively speaking, because there is no large scale agriculture near by, and there is quite a lot of green belt, including the park where some of my bees are, it's not that bad. It is certainly not as bad as it is in the countryside where crops are grown on a large scale. There is quite a lot of forage, and it is generally speaking not polluted with fungicides, pesticides and neonicitinoids. <br /><br />I don't do comb replacement ( and in some of my hives, it would be an impossible operation anyway ). I do leave old comb in hives as a swarm lure, and I find that most hives where the colony has died out are re-occupied the next year as a result.<br /><br />Barbara on biobees - who if you read her post is only now considering a comb replacement policy when she has a colony reach 5 or 6 years old, and this is after many years beekeeping - does live in the countryside, but by and large it seems to be grass fields for livestock, so she too has a *relatively* unpolluted environment. As she says, she has a lot of very old comb in her hives and they are very successful and long lived.<br /><br />I'm not saying your observations of your own hives in your environment are wrong. But I don't think it should be advocated as a general policy.<br />Adam Rosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11389182123125670521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1347024209749983628.post-13449995489780110502017-06-30T09:42:30.680-04:002017-06-30T09:42:30.680-04:00I'd like to post a link to Barbara's post ...I'd like to post a link to Barbara's post on biobees. She has two very old colonies which are only now running out of gas. And there is an interesting observation about swarms' preference for old comb. The post is here : http://www.biobees.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=117510#117510.Adam Rosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11389182123125670521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1347024209749983628.post-65709483758197014242017-06-29T17:29:56.411-04:002017-06-29T17:29:56.411-04:00Thanks for weighing in, Don. I agree -- Unless you...Thanks for weighing in, Don. I agree -- Unless you live in some incredibly remote area, it's really hard to find a natural environment.<br /><br />There are a couple times during the year when I remove as much old comb as I can. When winterizing, I'll pull any empty combs and melt them down. If we get a freakish warm day during early spring (about late Feb or March for me), I'll go in again and remove any empty combs. <br /><br />One of the weird things about my bees is that they really don't follow the rules regarding where the nest/honey should be. In early spring, the nest is near the entrance, but as the season wears on, and I add more and more empty bars in front of the honey bars, the bees build new comb and move closer toward the middle/back and start backfilling the vacated combs in front. I used to keep swapping them around, but I gave up on that a few years ago. Now I wait until after the spring flow has ended in order to prep the hives for fall by moving the brood back to the entrance and the honey to the back. I put the oldest combs all the way at the back so they get harvested. (Hmmm... Maybe, I should try just overwintering a colony with the brood at the back and honey at the front...)<br /><br />During the spring flow, if I notice any old brood combs or drone combs during an inspection, I also move them toward the back of the brood nest so that they're still part of the nest and can be cared for, but they're next to the honey area, so when they are vacated, the bees can fill them with honey in the fall.<br /><br />This year, I tried something different with Elsa hoping she'd keep most of her brood near the front and honey at the back. I started inserting bars at the front of the hive between the brood and pollen bars. It only sort of worked for awhile, then the brood nest started moving toward the back again. I have to assume they know what they're doing better than I.<br /><br />Like you, I also provide my splits with comb to jumpstart things. I just treat it like any other comb in the hive. If I see it getting dark, I rotate it to the back of the nest and remove it whenever I'd normally remove old comb (Winter, early spring, or part of a honey harvest). Julie Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09965401314478095790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1347024209749983628.post-63529480679963393082017-06-29T17:09:27.042-04:002017-06-29T17:09:27.042-04:00Hi, Adam, Thanks for your thoughtful remarks.
Fo...Hi, Adam, Thanks for your thoughtful remarks. <br /><br />For the most part, I think the methodology makes sense. Packages may not be ideal, but I can see how they were trying to equalize all the factors. However, like you I would have liked to have seen this experiment run longer than 28 days. I don't know why they stopped. <br /><br />Like you, I believe that hives are complex organisms that requires bacteria, yeast, etc., and there is a synergistic effect that takes place between all of these elements. Without bacteria, yeast, even viruses, etc., the colony is not a balanced organism. <br /><br />On the other hand, I've watched my own bees progress over the course of years, and I've noticed that my queens prefer new comb to lay in (common knowledge to many beekeepers), and the bees prefer to store honey in old comb. So I really don't see the point in saving old comb for the queen to lay in, especially in a TBH when the hive is not expandable anyway. <br /><br />Also, I agree with you that many modern environments are not natural environments. I'd go so far as to say that most modern environments are not natural environments. Certainly not in my suburbia where neighbors and businesses are dumping fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, etc. all over their lawns. Plus, there are all the chemicals that people inadvertently dump into the environment just by driving and heating houses. I read a study once about the levels of toxic/petroleum-based chemical on plants located near roads. It was through the roof. Yet that's the kind of environment I live in. So yes, over the course of years, I've noticed a consistent trend in TF hives with old comb to underperform TF hives that build new comb each year, and I think it does make sense to remove as much of it as I can. (BTW, there is obviously some comb carried over from year to year, but I try to minimize it.)<br />Julie Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09965401314478095790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1347024209749983628.post-15424477286189866032017-06-29T16:27:48.769-04:002017-06-29T16:27:48.769-04:00I think Adam's final paragraph is key - there ...I think Adam's final paragraph is key - there are very few natural environments any more. That's not limited to rural areas - suburban and urban environments are teaming with poisons. Gardeners in these areas use higher doses of poisons per acre than in agricultural areas. So, I think for hobbyist TB beeks, rotating out old comb is a good idea.<br /><br />My question is more on method. Every time I try to move out old comb, it usually has brood in it, or at least pollen/nectar stores. How do you go about moving it out of the hive? In the spring when the population is low, this might be a bit easier. I typically move drone comb to the back of the hive for honey storage, but worker brood comb always seems to have valuable stores in it when it's not filled with brood. <br /><br />I also have a problem in the spring when I'm trying to get swarms/splits started. I like to provide them with some (older) comb to jumpstart things, but then I'm in the same position where they are still using it and don't know when to remove it.<br />Donhttp://www.buddhaandthebees.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1347024209749983628.post-8514176622767259242017-06-29T08:01:16.737-04:002017-06-29T08:01:16.737-04:00OK, I have quickly read the original article and h...<br />OK, I have quickly read the original article and here are my initial thoughts:<br />- first, there is a reasonable argument about replacing comb, particularly when you live in an agricultural area where pecticides, neonicitinoids and other nasty things are used on a regular basis<br />- second, this article provide no useful evidence for natural beekeepers one way or the other. If you look in the methodology section, they started from packages, they treated with various chemicals, they fed with sugar, they started with potentially contaminated foundation, and then they only ran the experiment for 28 days !<br /><br />I have also looked up Oconee County, Georgia. Apparently it was ranked the "third-best rural county to live in by Progressive Farmer magazine in 2006". Not necessarily a claim to fame, but it might well be that the older comb was contaminated by chemicals used in the average US farming environment, and that therefore the results do not generalise to other environments.<br /><br />I have already mentioned that the experiment only lasted 28 days. I would also challenge some of the evaluation criteria. Why is the amount of brood created in the first 28 days important ? Why is the total weight of brood in the first 28 days important ? Small bees are good, since it means that the varoa have less time to breed. "Survivorship" may be an indication of this, although I would guess that the interaction with varroa is not apparent until a lot longer than 28 days.<br /><br />While not fundamental to the study, some of the comments about white comb being better and propolis, fungus, bacteria and other stuff being bad are very anthopocentric and not at all backed up by any evidence.<br /><br />My opinion is that in a natural environment, there is a postive interaction between new comb, old comb, wax moths, and all the lovely propolis, creepy crawlies, fungus and other stuff in the hive that is best. So in environments close to this, we should leave as much of the old comb in as we can. But many modern environments, particularly rural environments, are nothing like this. In those environments, it might make sense to take out old comb because all the poisons in the environment collect in the old comb.<br /><br />Adam.<br /><br /><br />Adam Rosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11389182123125670521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1347024209749983628.post-26273854821131903982017-06-29T07:34:23.350-04:002017-06-29T07:34:23.350-04:00Interesting post. I have started a thread on biobe...Interesting post. I have started a thread on biobees here : http://www.biobees.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=117495 to discuss it.<br /><br />I am happy to continue the discussion in either forum or both.<br />Adam Rosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11389182123125670521noreply@blogger.com